We have got to behave

[Aero]

To illustrate the point I was trying to make earlier, let's examine Micron for a second. Let's imagine that Micron never decided to build. You would have collected property taxes on a field. Let's say that those taxes are $10,000 a year, which is ridiculously high, but to make my point we'll use it. So, over a 20 year period, you would have received:

20 X $10,000 = $200,000

Now, let's imagine that Micron does move in and to get them to move in, they recieve an RDA that lets them not pay a single penny in taxes for 15 years. So, you won't receive a dime for 15 years and will be out about $150,000 during that time. But once those 15 years are up, Micron must now pay $200,000 a year in property taxes. So over the same 20 year period, you have:

(15 X 0) + (5 X $200,000) = $1,000,000

And that doesn't even begin to take into account all of the people that move into the area to work at Micron or the other businesses that come because Micron is in the area that are also paying property taxes and have been doing so for the entire 20 years. So, in the short run, it might look like RDAs hurt education because they lose out on a little bit of money, but in the long run they are very good for education. They can end up paying for themselves over and over again.

In my opinion, it is very short-sighted to say that RDAs take money away from education. While tecnically true, it doesn't paint the whole big picture.

[Deuce]

Excellent Point Aero... you can't lose money you never had! or would not have generated had the RDA funds not been used to coax the business into the area!

So the statement that you are taking money from education is still a falsehood and can still be called a scare tactic by politicians!

And besides that the schools and roads are over crowded already and it has nothing to do with stadiums... but that is a debate outside of the scope of this thread!

Originally Posted by Aero

This is kind of a catch 22. These hundreds of millions of dollars that are being lost would not have been there even if they hadn't used RDAs. They would just have empy land sitting there without generating hardly any tax income. So, it's really not quite accurate to say that they are losing out on millions of dollars. Unless you really believe that Thanksgiving Point, Micron, and Cabelas would have built there anyway. And I don't think that any of us are naive enough to believe that.

You can't really say that you are missing out on money that you wouldn't have had to begin with. But now, in the future, when the tax breaks wear off, you will have those millions of dollars in taxes that you would have never had if you hadn't given companies the incentive to move to your area. You'd still have empty fields there instead. And while they might generate a little tax income now, in the long run, using an RDA to get those businesses to build there will give you much more money for education. And you aren't even missing out on all that much now, so I don't see how RDAs can be said to hurt education at all, except in the short-sighted short term.

[WorldBall]

Aero, you are 100% correct and have stated your case very well. And you also make my point which goes hand in hand with yours:

Originally Posted by Aero

that doesn't even begin to take into account all of the people that move into the area..

Many people move in, but because of the tax breaks given essential services such as eductation, roads, etc do not have the resources that they need. Before the big box there was equilibrium. After the tax breaks and big boxes quality of life actually goes down as there are more people and needs than there were before.

These issues should be planned by community 'planning commissions' but most planning commissions should actually be known as 'lack of plannign commissions.'

Aero, you are right, that saying RDA takes money away from eduction does not paint the full picture. However, most people don't understand this issue they need to have it explained so that they can see both sides of a complex issue.

[clarette]

I still don't understand how this particular piece of legislation does anything to truly reform the RDA system, though.

Every time I ride the TRAX to work now, it just irks me looking at all the abandoned industrial areas along the rail corridors to know that it's essentially hopeless to think they might actually get redeveloped into something non graffiti-laden and useful.

[Aero]

Originally Posted by WorldBall

Aero, you are 100% correct and have stated your case very well.

Thank you.

Many people move in, but because of the tax breaks given essential services such as eductation, roads, etc do not have the resources that they need. Before the big box there was equilibrium. After the tax breaks and big boxes quality of life actually goes down as there are more people and needs than there were before.

Ahh, now you have finally hit on the real problem that RDAs bring. I agree with you totally here. They often bring development that moves faster than the community support structures do. So, in essence, you have a lag that is seen when an RDA is used. This is the real problem and is what should be addressed instead of using education as a scare tactic. I'm pretty sure that most people probably wouldn't get quite as worked up over this though so no one addresses it.

These issues should be planned by community 'planning commissions' but most planning commissions should actually be known as 'lack of plannign commissions.'

So very true. And this is what the focus should be placed on. Better planning, not eliminating RDAs use to lure business into the area. Instead of using a fictional band-aid, we should be looking at the actual problem. But that would take long-term thinking and most politicians can't see past the end of their term and only look far enough ahead to be re-elected.

Aero, you are right, that saying RDA takes money away from eduction does not paint the full picture. However, most people don't understand this issue they need to have it explained so that they can see both sides of a complex issue.

Yes, it is a very complex issue that most people really have no idea about. And I would say education would be a great thing if I actually thought that most people actually wanted to be educated about it. Unfortunately, most people simply don't care enough to really find out about it.

[WorldBall]

I need to clarify that I am not against 'Big Box' type stores. I love them and spend most of my money at Walmart, Home Depot, and Smiths. They serve their purposes and take very good care of my needs. I throw that term around because it is easy for most to understand and they have been a hot topic in the news lately.

[jasoncox]

You guys seem very informed on this topic and I'm enjoying my time basking in the glow of intelligence from this thread.

However, all things aside, I just want a freakin' stadium here for our new team. I think Bramble's approach is counter-productive. As a growing area we need more recreational sporting events like soccer. If they don't use RDA money, then they better find some other money to do it. Otherwise, Utah is telling professional sports to go elsewhere. If so, we're just a bigger version of Boise.

[Rover]

Originally Posted by jasoncox

You guys seem very informed on this topic and I'm enjoying my time basking in the glow of intelligence from this thread.

However, all things aside, I just want a freakin' stadium here for our new team. I think Bramble's approach is counter-productive. As a growing area we need more recreational sporting events like soccer. If they don't use RDA money, then they better find some other money to do it. Otherwise, Utah is telling professional sports to go elsewhere. If so, we're just a bigger version of Boise.

Boise Rocks.

[StarsOnSunday]

RDA or no RDA, Provo needs to stay the HECK out of Salt Lake! This is not a state-wide issue and therefore does not require state-wide legislation. How can a rep from Provo tell Salt Lake what it can and cannot do for the Soccer team it aquired on its own merit? This simply is not a Provo affair. If Checketts chose Provo as Real's home, would Salt Lake have any business telling Provo how to go about with their dealings? No! I would liken this to Senator Hatch proposing that the whole nation should adopt Utah's liquor law's because he thinks he has some sort of insight on what the rest of the country should do. Thanks, but go home!

Besides, Provo has nothing to contribute to this arguement. All their sports stadiums get pay for by the LDS church!

[Aero]

Originally Posted by jasoncox

I think Bramble's approach is counter-productive.

Bramble's approach, like most politician's, is short-sighted and stupid. But it might get him re-elected if he can convince enough people that he cares about their kids. And after all, that is a the primary goal of any politician. It isn't to actually do what is best for a community, especially in the long run, but to do whatever will get him the most votes the next time his name is on a ballot.

He is just your average politician. Well, except that he seems to need to have the spotlight as well as getting re-elected.

I'm sure that the RSL FO will do whatever it takes to get a stadium. It might not be as nice or in such a great location without RDA funds, but it will get built. Especially after we show him how passionate we are about soccer by filling up RES this summer.