Racism and football

[Aero]

Originally Posted by montgjules

p.s. I've seen Aero stand up for his viewpoints quietly but with a lot of determination a number of times, even when those viewpoints were very very unpopular.

Thank you for that Jules. I appreciate it.

[utah_heretic]

I can't even think of where to begin to respond to you jules

[Old Ska]

Originally Posted by bordelais7

I see. So anyone who favors league or organization imposed fines and/or penalties against teams whose fans are involved in racist activities only holds that opinion because he is just too "chicken" to take care of the problem himself?

No, that statement applied only to Aero and not anyone else. I have a number of reasons for coming to this conclusion, most of which are irrelevant here.

I do believe that rational, intelligent people can hold the view that Deuce does. I don't think he holds that view for any reason other than a sincere belief that it is ethically the right approach to the problem, in the same way that I believe it is too severe a response to the problem.

Clear the stadium, impose fines, have other sanctions that don't have an impact on the athleticism of the game. I would even be in favor of refs giving out red cards to players on the field for racist behavior...but until someone shows me a justification in the Laws of the Game for punishing racist acts in the stands, I stand by my position that it would be bad for the game.

[Old Ska]

Originally Posted by Deuce

You asserting that blacks using that word or prefacing it with another less offensive word, somehow, makes it "all better" is beyond my comprehension. And I might add patently offensive.

I think you missed the point of that example. What I was saying is simply that it is not simple to tease out what is racist and what is not. Is one black guy calling another "the N word" automatically racist? I say no (but others would say yes). Is a white person ever using (in the sense of use vs. mention) that word inappropriate? I say yes. Is a black guy calling another black guy a "country N-word" racist? I say yes. And it gets a LOT more complicated when you consider the various viewpoints on the word just in the black community in the US.

Despite the fact that it seems like "we know racism when we see it", the simple fact is that we don't always know it when we see it (the "we" here being the white guys involved in this discussion). Furthermore, racist behaviors vary from culture to culture, and not just from country to country but even within MLS. I challenge anyone here to write a hypothetical 18th Law of the Game that punishes racist behavior in the stands in such a way that it is not so narrow as to be ridiculous or so broad as to be subject to rampant abuse. Deuce, Aero, take me up on this and give it a shot.

I'll say it again for those who missed it the other 10 times I wrote it. I don't condone monkey noises, and I certainly am not justifying their use. However, I think that any group behavior anywhere is very complex and multifaceted and is not always what it seems at first blush...especially to outsiders. To award 3 points one way or the other based on fan behavior in the stands is not a wise move.

[Old Ska]

Originally Posted by Aero

Thank you for that Jules. I appreciate it.

Well, at least some good has come from this. If I can get Aero and Jules to kiss and make up, I may be able to achieve just about anything!

Now, if I could get all you guys to go back to the beginning of this thread and reread it with some measure of open-mindedness and composure, and without assuming that I am some racist in liberal clothing, all would be set right in the universe once more!

[Old Ska]

Originally Posted by Deuce

CHANGE THE RESULTS OF THE MATCH AND IT WILL CHANGE THE ATTITUDES OF OFFENSIVE FANS!

Deuce (cyber)yelling this is what my original response was to, and what I assumed we have been talking about all along.

[Aero]

Originally Posted by Old Ska

I challenge anyone here to write a hypothetical 18th Law of the Game that punishes racist behavior in the stands in such a way that it is not so narrow as to be ridiculous or so broad as to be subject to rampant abuse. Deuce, Aero, take me up on this and give it a shot.

It was never my intent to enter this discussion on any other level than to challenge the assertation that monkey noises might not be racist if motivated by something else. That is why I entered this discussion and that is what I have tried to focus my comments on the whole time. I didn't enter this discussion to rewrite the rulebook or come up with new rules. Go back and check my entry into this discussion and all my posts after that. In fact, here is my first post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Ska
I think that the Monkey noises are racist, but I can also see where an intelligent person would not think so. I certainly do not condone racism in any form (look for my name in SLC papers circa 1990 if you don't believe me).

It seems to me as if you are condoning racism as long as the form it comes in is a taunt done at a soccer match. Isn't that a form of racism? Or is it simply that anything goes at a soccer match and any kind of vile behavior can be excused as simple phsychological warfare to be waged against the other team? It's not racist to make monkey noises, it's just getting in the heads of the players. Is that really what you are trying to say here?

Quote:
However, I think that athletic contests should be about skill and athleticism and not a contest to see which team has the fans that are more polite/PC. Racism has to be countered on many levels, from where organisers meet, to inside the heads of people who suffer from the disease (this is where economics plays a huge role). But changing the outcome of soccer matches? That is just stupid.
In fact, I can't see any other meaning to this paragraph. It seems to me that you go on and on about how bad racism is and then go on to justify it as long as it is in a sporting event where it then becomes "stupid." Racism has no place anywhere, not even at soccer matches. I'm surprised that you would try and justify it, especially after going on about how vile it is and how oppposed you are to it. Racism is racism no matter how you try and dress it up to take out in public.

As you can see, I didn't try and address what form of punishment was or wasn't appropriate. I simply challenged the idea that any intelligent person could ever see the monkey noises as anything but racist. That has been my only intention in this discussion. You have read much more into what I have written than was ever meant by me.

I'll say it again for those who missed it the other 10 times I wrote it. I don't condone monkey noises, and I certainly am not justifying their use. However, I think that any group behavior anywhere is very complex and multifaceted and is not always what it seems at first blush...especially to outsiders. To award 3 points one way or the other based on fan behavior in the stands is not a wise move.

If you would have noticed, when it comes to the ref having the power to call games because of racist behavior of fans, I am against that. So, that we agree on and always have despite the fact that you manufactured the opposite position for me. What we don't agree on and what we continue to disagree on is whether or not monkey noises can ever be seen as anything but racist by anyone at anytime. There is no "however" when it comes to monkey noises being racist or not. They are racist, outsider or not.

And usually when you say that you don't condone something, you don't follow it up with a "however" justification for why it may not be as bad as everyone seems to be making it out to be.

[montgjules]

Originally Posted by Old Ska

Well, at least some good has come from this. If I can get Aero and Jules to kiss and make up, I may be able to achieve just about anything!

Aero and I have considered each other friends for a long time. If we've had differences of opinion in the past, we worked them out privately already.

[Aero]

Originally Posted by montgjules

Aero and I have considered each other friends for a long time. If we've had differences of opinion in the past, we worked them out privately already.

What she said.

[Old Ska]

Glad to hear it Jules, since it was just 6 weeks ago or so Aero said the following:

Jules quitting/being driven off will only strengthen the Loyalists. It's like getting rid of a bad apple that always seems to cause trouble for all of the other apples. Now if the Loyalists can just get rid of a few more bad apples....