Racism and football

[Old Ska]

Originally Posted by Section 37

The "marketplace of ideas" is a nice thought, but we should remember that having a marketplace of ideas does not make all ideas equal. The idea that racism is somehow an acceptable expression of economic or political concerns is intellectually lazy and socially irresponsible.

Racist and bigoted chants (like the monkey chant, an unambiguous racist chant- don't pretend that it might not have been racist) deserves nothing more than to be discarded on the scrap heap.

Racism and bigotry has no place in our society. It's our duty as fans to police each other. Those who would push a racist agenda at a game must understand that while they are free to say what they wish, their speech has consequences.

Consequences like having their @$$ kicked up around their ears.

Taking a stand against certain behavior is not fascism.

Racist chants were tolerated a few decades ago, but not today. The "Romo Homo" chant is tolerated today, but in a few years, it too will disappear.

Agreed with 99% of the above. I am simply saying that it should not be FIFA's role to get involved with this.

I think the monkey noises are ugly, lame, and stupid. They are probably even mostly racist, but if you read the current literature on sport and society (or what a lot of us like to call hooliganology) you will find that not everyone agrees (and by this I mean not armchair fans, but impartial sociologists who spend their lives studying this stuff). The counter argument is that it is simply a way to get into other player's heads...and I have seen black guys do it to in the past (but that was in England where these are almost never done anymore). I would say that it is a racist "chant" but that not that racism is going through the mind of every person doing it at any given time. I have never done it and can't imagine myself doing it. But over the last 21 years I have spent enough time on terraces in Europe to know that what looks one way on t.v. (especially through the lens of a different cuture) is often much more complex than it seems at first. FIFA stopping matches is not the way to combat racism. How about getting some black managers of Premier league teams in England? Italy? That would do far more than wringing hands about a racist chant here and there. How about some black guys getting positions of real authority within FIFA itself? When FIFA and the Leagues are not racist in their hiring and promotion policies, I will feel comfortable with them telling the fans what they can and can't do qua racism.

I nave no quarrel with NGOs that fight football-related racism, and I support 2 of them with my cash. I admire players who take stands, and fans who do as well. I just can't for the life of me figure out how any administrative body of sport gets the authority to police thought.

[Old Ska]

Okay, now I am at the office and have more of my library closer at hand I can specificly recommend a few pieces of reading regarding monkey noises:

-For a good discription of monkey noises in Italy and a very brief analysis look at Tim Parks' A Season With Verona (essentially a travel memoir type of book).

-The British at Play by Nigel Townson is a socio-historical look at sports in Britain since 1600 and goes into racism in sport in great depth, including a solid analysis (historical and sociological) of monkey noises and banana peels.

-The Changing Face of Football: Racism, Identity and Multiculture in the English Game by Les Back, Tim Crabbe, John Solomos. A must read for anyone interested in the intersection of class, race, and sport in England. Talks in detail about broad implications of the monkey noises thing.

-Racism and Anti-racism in Football, Jon Garland, Michael Rowe. Decent enough book that touches on the subject.

I didn't find the exact book chapter or article I was looking for this morning, it was written relatively recently but I forgot where. When I find it I will post a reference.

[clarette]

Originally Posted by Section 37

The "Romo Homo" chant is tolerated today, but in a few years, it too will disappear.

People tolerate that now?

Charming. 🙄

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by Old Ska

Agreed with 99% of the above. I am simply saying that it should not be FIFA's role to get involved with this.

I think the monkey noises are ugly, lame, and stupid. They are probably even mostly racist, but if you read the current literature on sport and society (or what a lot of us like to call hooliganology) you will find that not everyone agrees (and by this I mean not armchair fans, but impartial sociologists who spend their lives studying this stuff). The counter argument is that it is simply a way to get into other player's heads...and I have seen black guys do it to in the past (but that was in England where these are almost never done anymore). I would say that it is a racist "chant" but that not that racism is going through the mind of every person doing it at any given time. I have never done it and can't imagine myself doing it. But over the last 21 years I have spent enough time on terraces in Europe to know that what looks one way on t.v. (especially through the lens of a different cuture) is often much more complex than it seems at first. FIFA stopping matches is not the way to combat racism. How about getting some black managers of Premier league teams in England? Italy? That would do far more than wringing hands about a racist chant here and there. How about some black guys getting positions of real authority within FIFA itself? When FIFA and the Leagues are not racist in their hiring and promotion policies, I will feel comfortable with them telling the fans what they can and can't do qua racism.

I nave no quarrel with NGOs that fight football-related racism, and I support 2 of them with my cash. I admire players who take stands, and fans who do as well. I just can't for the life of me figure out how any administrative body of sport gets the authority to police thought.

I appreciate the references but like American Politics, if you dig deep enough, you can find an expert to support or refute any claims made…



Racism comes in a multitude of guises.

For you to claim that the monkey chants “may not be racially motivated” is just irresponsible.
How can you argue the fact when it is painfully obvious to all, in the stands and on the TV that the chants start as soon as a black player gets the ball and end when the black player comes off the ball. To claim that it is anything other than racism, because some psychologist said so, is just plain naïve.

The player perceived it as racially motivated and so did other witnesses.

You also assume that because people have not been to a match in Italy that we somehow don’t understand what racism is.

You don’t know my background so for you to assume that I will swallow whatever a psychologist says is, and is not, racism and that I do not understand racism. That is your mistake, not mine.

I grew up mostly back east, but then moved to happy valley in the 70’s and lived there thru the early 80’s with my step dad, who happened to be African American. My step dad was one of only a handful of blacks in UtahCounty at the time.

Driving through Provo and Orem, specifically BYU we were stopped by police every single time my step dad was in the car with us. In fact my mom and step dad would purposefully add half an hour to get to our destination, simply because they both knew we would be stopped by police. My step dad eventually stopped going with us somewhere if we were running late.

At schools in UtahCounty, I was asked what his feet looked like and if he was good at climbing trees and chucking spears, also if stuff got stuck in his hair like Velcro.
I got into alot of fights when I was growing up because of that.

I was told by parents of my friends that their kids were not allowed to hang out with me. Once their parents met my step dad I knew they would not be friends for long.

I was with him when he was on the receiving end of Monkey Chants at the old Albertson’s on Center Street in Orem, (it is Chucky Cheese now). He said that it didn’t bother him because he was used to it. I knew he was lieing to me so I would not see how it hurt. I saw his reactions to it all. There is no doubt in my mind that it was racially motivated.

If you think that I don’t understand blatant racism and even the most subtle acts of racism you are mistaken.

So if you want to hide behind your psychologists, diplomas and books, fine, but don’t presume to know that they have the answer to racism just because they wrote a book or formed an idea.
I don't have friends that know somebody that once knew a guy that experienced racism on TV or in a book. I was there next to my step dad... and if you think that people treated me well for standing up next to him... you are mistaken again.

---

BTW how did suggesting that UEFA, not FIFA, do something about racism at football matches suddenly turn into controlling what people think? I suggested that they act because they have the power to act on it. I never suggested that they control what people think. I suggested they take action against people that “act” in a racist manner.

[Section 37]

Deuce, your story is very compelling.

It's timely as well considering what happened last week at Eagle Mountain.

We would do well to remember that racism is not an academic problem. It impacts real people in real life.

[Old Ska]

I haven't meant to insinuate that anyone participating in this discussion was ignorant about or inexperienced with racism. If it came across that way, I apologize.

While I believe that as a white American I could never fully understand what it is like to suffer racism, I have felt its ripple effects first hand many times in my life. A kid I went to Middle School with was handed back to Jeffrey Dahmer by the police after running out of Dahmer's house naked and bleeding from his rear-end...mainly because the kid was Cambodian. Neo-nazi skinheads shot repeatedly into the car of my close friends in 1988, killing 2 paralyzing one and severely injuring another. I was a founding member in 1988 of an important anti-racist group that now has chapters in every major city in the US and dozens more abroad. (While I now disagree with the direction that group has taken in some respects, I still think they do a lot of good stuff and encourage people to check out their website: http://www.antiracistaction.us/pn/). I am on the Milwaukee County Government's Cultural Diversity committee. I bring this stuff up to make the point that these issues are of more than a passing interest to me.

I think that the Monkey noises are racist, but I can also see where an intelligent person would not think so. I certainly do not condone racism in any form (look for my name in SLC papers circa 1990 if you don't believe me).

However, racism in the US and Europe are fundamentally different, and need to be handled in different ways. Both are ugly and vile, and both are dangerous. However, I think that athletic contests should be about skill and athleticism and not a contest to see which team has the fans that are more polite/PC. Racism has to be countered on many levels, from where organisers meet, to inside the heads of people who suffer from the disease (this is where economics plays a huge role). But changing the outcome of soccer matches? That is just stupid. I think smoking is dangerous and vile, and the ill effects it has had on society are tremendous. How about we just count the smokers in the crowd and award 3 points to the team with the fewest fans who smoke?

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by Old Ska

I haven't meant to insinuate that anyone participating in this discussion was ignorant about or inexperienced with racism. If it came across that way, I apologize.

While I believe that as a white American I could never fully understand what it is like to suffer racism, I have felt its ripple effects first hand many times in my life. A kid I went to Middle School with was handed back to Jeffrey Dahmer by the police after running out of Dahmer's house naked and bleeding from his rear-end...mainly because the kid was Cambodian. Neo-nazi skinheads shot repeatedly into the car of my close friends in 1988, killing 2 paralyzing one and severely injuring another. I was a founding member in 1988 of an important anti-racist group that now has chapters in every major city in the US and dozens more abroad. (While I now disagree with the direction that group has taken in some respects, I still think they do a lot of good stuff and encourage people to check out their website: http://www.antiracistaction.us/pn/). I am on the Milwaukee County Government's Cultural Diversity committee. I bring this stuff up to make the point that these issues are of more than a passing interest to me.

I think that the Monkey noises are racist, but I can also see where an intelligent person would not think so. I certainly do not condone racism in any form (look for my name in SLC papers circa 1990 if you don't believe me).

However, racism in the US and Europe are fundamentally different, and need to be handled in different ways. Both are ugly and vile, and both are dangerous. However, I think that athletic contests should be about skill and athleticism and not a contest to see which team has the fans that are more polite/PC. Racism has to be countered on many levels, from where organisers meet, to inside the heads of people who suffer from the disease (this is where economics plays a huge role). But changing the outcome of soccer matches? That is just stupid. I think smoking is dangerous and vile, and the ill effects it has had on society are tremendous. How about we just count the smokers in the crowd and award 3 points to the team with the fewest fans who smoke?

That is fine that you think that changing the outcome of sporting events is stupid. I don't happen to agree with you.

I took offense to your apparent attempt at justification of the act that in my view and experience is unjustifiable.

If you were not trying to justify it, then your point was lost in the statements you made.

Racism is vile... it is illegal, in most modern contries. so why not cut through the crap and come down hard on illegal behavior instead of trying to sidestrep the issue and divert the attention away from it with economic discussions.

[Aero]

Originally Posted by Old Ska

I think that the Monkey noises are racist, but I can also see where an intelligent person would not think so. I certainly do not condone racism in any form (look for my name in SLC papers circa 1990 if you don't believe me).

It seems to me as if you are condoning racism as long as the form it comes in is a taunt done at a soccer match. Isn't that a form of racism? Or is it simply that anything goes at a soccer match and any kind of vile behavior can be excused as simple phsychological warfare to be waged against the other team? It's not racist to make monkey noises, it's just getting in the heads of the players. Is that really what you are trying to say here?

However, I think that athletic contests should be about skill and athleticism and not a contest to see which team has the fans that are more polite/PC. Racism has to be countered on many levels, from where organisers meet, to inside the heads of people who suffer from the disease (this is where economics plays a huge role). But changing the outcome of soccer matches? That is just stupid.

In fact, I can't see any other meaning to this paragraph. It seems to me that you go on and on about how bad racism is and then go on to justify it as long as it is in a sporting event where it then becomes "stupid." Racism has no place anywhere, not even at soccer matches. I'm surprised that you would try and justify it, especially after going on about how vile it is and how oppposed you are to it. Racism is racism no matter how you try and dress it up to take out in public.

[Old Ska]

Actually, I agree with Section 37 more than anyone else (he suggested fans take action directly and immediately in different words). Racism in football should be opposed, but not directly via the game itself. I have a hard time finding anything in the 17 Laws that would justify something like changing a match outcome based on crowd behavior. When we give football associations the power to police behavior/thought we are on a dangerous path.

I would even be for letting local law enforcement enforce percieved human rights violations by arresting offenders in the stadium if local laws allow it. But giving such massive powers to refs or admin officials who already are working hard to ruin the game? That is just bizarre.

[Deuce]

Originally Posted by Old Ska

Actually, I agree with Section 37 more than anyone else (he suggested fans take action directly and immediately in different words). Racism in football should be opposed, but not directly via the game itself. I have a hard time finding anything in the 17 Laws that would justify something like changing a match outcome based on crowd behavior. When we give football associations the power to police behavior/thought we are on a dangerous path.

I would even be for letting local law enforcement enforce percieved human rights violations by arresting offenders in the stadium if local laws allow it. But giving such massive powers to refs or admin officials who already are working hard to ruin the game? That is just bizarre.

Ok so now you are back to my original statement that the crowds will not "act directly and immediately" with out proper motivation.

If you have 1 guy that simply finds the monkey chants offensive, is he going to stand up to an entire section of rowdy football fans that are feeding off of the energy created by committing the racist acts?
To properly motivate the crowds to police themselves you have to give them an incentive. That incentive is to be able to compete for the 3 points. If one or two idiots in the crowd can take away that oppurtunity... how long do you think the rest of the crowd will allow it to continue.

There you bring up the thought control argument again. How is taking a firm stance against racism, thought control? How is attempting to motivate a crowd to police itself, Thought control? Do you think that separating opposing fans at matches is thought control?
I would call it simply crowd control same as calling a match on account of objects being thrown on the pitch or a pitch invasion - racism and human rights violations should be dealt with the same way.

Motivate the crowd to police itself. That is a simple answer to a complex problem.

I can see that your complaint goes deeper than racism. It is apparently your belief that FIFA and UEFA are ruining the game.
You see I don't believe that your fear that FIFA and UEFA is ruining football/soccer throughout the world is a good enough reason to allow racism to continue.