Racism and football

AreliusIII · 11-30-2005, 03:36 PM

This weekend Italian supporters hurled racist insults at Messina defender Marc Zoro. But he decided to take a stand.

In the 66th minute of yesterday's clash between Messina and Inter in Sicily, Zoro picked up the ball and walked off the pitch in protest at the monkey chants spewed at him by savage Inter fans. "I was fed up with it," explained the 21-year-old Ivorian. "It was the classic treatment of black players in Italy - it happens all over the country, Lazio fans being the worst," he continued, as Inter defender and Lazio old boy Sinisa Mihajlovic whistled innocently and looked at his shoes. Other Inter players expressed their support, however. Adriano and Obafemi Martins comforted Zoro and persuaded him to return to the pitch so the match could finish, while Luis Figo and Juan Veron apologised on behalf of the club. Indeed, even club kingpin Massimo Moratti today praised Zoro as "an intelligent man who acted in a brave and intelligent way". But not everyone at Inter was impressed: "[Centre-back and Everton legend Marco] Materazzi shouted 'stop that, Zoro, you're just trying to make a name for yourself'," revealed Zoro. "I didn't even argue with him, I've no intention of lowering myself to that level."

http://www.wldcup.com/news/2005Nov/20051128_33326_world_soccer.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/football/11/30/uefa.racism.ap/

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/28112005/3/photo/inter-milan-s-adriano-r-argues-marc-zoro-messina.html

Deuce · 11-30-2005, 04:18 PM

Good for him. Make a stand.
IMHO the players should all walk off when that occurs anywhere, not just Italy.
The officials should then award the match to the team that suffered the abuse.

If UEFA is serious about stamping out Racism then they need to hit the offending fans where it hurts. It obviously does no good to just ban the fans... that doe s not change the results of the match.

CHANGE THE RESULTS OF THE MATCH AND IT WILL CHANGE THE ATTITUDES OF OFFENSIVE FANS!

Make the teams liable for Racial abuse by giving players the ability to bring legal action against teams that continue, through lack of action, to allow fans to be abusive.
Wonder how long it will keep happening if the teams start to suffer direct financial loss from the actions of fans.

SokkerNut · 11-30-2005, 04:34 PM

When I first read this story I couldn't believe what I'd just read. I knew that racisim was bad but I didn't realize how bad until I read this article. I just don't understand people.

bordelais7 · 11-30-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuce

Good for him. Make a stand.
IMHO the players should all walk off when that occurs anywhere, not just Italy.
The officials should then award the match to the team that suffered the abuse.

If UEFA is serious about stamping out Racism then they need to hit the offending fans where it hurts. It obviously does no good to just ban the fans... that doe s not change the results of the match.

CHANGE THE RESULTS OF THE MATCH AND IT WILL CHANGE THE ATTITUDES OF OFFENSIVE FANS!

Make the teams liable for Racial abuse by giving players the ability to bring legal action against teams that continue, through lack of action, to allow fans to be abusive.
Wonder how long it will keep happening if the teams start to suffer direct financial loss from the actions of fans.

So what if I take a road trip, dress up in my opponents jersey, and start heckling players from the team that I support with the intent of helping my team to get a victory? I'm not sure that messing with the results of the game itself is the way to go. Anyway, officials generally don't have the authority to take such actions on the spot -- usually it's reviewed by a committee like FIFA.

I like the legal action idea, and I like punishing the team by forcing them to play the next home game in an empty stadium.

My question is why is it tolerated by the other fans? Surely the majority of the people at these games aren't racist and should be willing to pound the crap out of these idiots.

Deuce · 12-01-2005, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bordelais7

So what if I take a road trip, dress up in my opponents jersey, and start heckling players from the team that I support with the intent of helping my team to get a victory? I'm not sure that messing with the results of the game itself is the way to go. Anyway, officials generally don't have the authority to take such actions on the spot -- usually it's reviewed by a committee like FIFA.

I like the legal action idea, and I like punishing the team by forcing them to play the next home game in an empty stadium.

My question is why is it tolerated by the other fans? Surely the majority of the people at these games aren't racist and should be willing to pound the crap out of these idiots.

I already considered that possibility.

three major things that will prevent dressing up as an opposing fan, and causing havoc.

1) In Italy, like the rest of Europe, fans are separated, Away fans sit on one side of the stadium, while home fans sit on the other, separated by barrier and police. For instance, You would never be able to get a group posing as Juve fans to sit in the Roma section unless they had a death wish. The officials will know which fans are offending simply from the direction the offense is coming from. To be effective, the offending fans would have to get a ticket in the opposite section, not an easy thing to do in Europe, but let's say it happens. that brings up point number two

2) If the fans get a ticket in the opposing fan section and the opposing fans know that any flagarant act of racism will cause them to lose the match and 3 points. They will certainly come down hard on the offenders. and start to police themselves more effectively.

3) In europe, the pride one has for his/her team will not allow a "true" fan to ever don the garb of the enemy. Especially in public, at a televised match where someone from his team supporters might see him/her. It would be suicide.

In answer to your other points. UEFA is already emptying stadiums but it does not really hurt the fans because they get the points if they win anyway.

Group dynamics are what keep people from acting. Safety in numbers; if everyone is doing it, everyone will continue to do it. It will take at least one person to stand up to the offenders, then others will join in with that lead.

If there is no incentive to stand up to them, then you will never see one man stand up to an entire section of chanting supporters.

I say motivate them to the point that if they don't stand up they are gonna lose points. If they are in a tight league championship race... every point counts.

AreliusIII · 12-01-2005, 04:55 PM

In October, FIFA president Sepp Blatter called on clubs to be docked points for racism during matches. UEFA vice-president Per Ravn Omdal said on Wednesday that clubs, players and even national associations faced expulsion if they were found guilty of sustained racism.

Clubs do not enjoy being fined - but they live in real dread of being docked points or kicked out of competitions.

Lost points could mean relegation or missing European football, while being denied a coveted Champions League place would cost millions in lost revenues.

Equally punitive would be the shame, that is likely to be long-lived, of becoming the first club to be kicked out of a UEFA competition because of a failure to tackle racism.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=sportsNews&storyID=2005-12-01T173713Z_01_MAR163308_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SOCCER-COLUMN.xml&archived=False

Old Ska · 12-02-2005, 07:36 AM

Good for him. I have always hated the monkey chant thing. It is stupid and vile...at least this time they weren't throwing bananas too. I think it is important for individuals to take stands that bring this stuff to the spotlight.

However, I have to say that it strikes me as odd that organizing/administrative bodies of sport get involved in politics like this. I think that the heavy-handed policing of this is just as vile as the racism itself. Let the world know that just under the surface in places like Germany and Italy racism is bubbling...and let the marketplace punish them. In Germany, for example, the outlawing of Nazi symbolism has actually served as a rallying point for neo-nazi activists...this kind of stupidity is best combated by shining a light on it, not by sending it back into hidden places.

Want to stop gutter racism in Europe? The answer is not on the pitch, but it is in economics and politics.

Furthermore...what is next? We can't say 'Romo Homo'? No insinuating that Landycakes is effeminate? No more "so-and-so has herpes"? No bad haircut taunts?

Deuce · 12-02-2005, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Ska

Good for him. I have always hated the monkey chant thing. It is stupid and vile...at least this time they weren't throwing bananas too. I think it is important for individuals to take stands that bring this stuff to the spotlight.

However, I have to say that it strikes me as odd that organizing/administrative bodies of sport get involved in politics like this. I think that the heavy-handed policing of this is just as vile as the racism itself. Let the world know that just under the surface in places like Germany and Italy racism is bubbling...and let the marketplace punish them. In Germany, for example, the outlawing of Nazi symbolism has actually served as a rallying point for neo-nazi activists...this kind of stupidity is best combated by shining a light on it, not by sending it back into hidden places.

Want to stop gutter racism in Europe? The answer is not on the pitch, but it is in economics and politics.

Furthermore...what is next? We can't say 'Romo Homo'? No insinuating that Landycakes is effeminate? No more "so-and-so has herpes"? No bad haircut taunts?

I don’t claim to have all of the answers and I appreciate that you have a different viewpoint.
You bring up many good points that stimulate a healthy debate. I am no expert and would probably not win in a social debate with you. I will agree with you on a few points and disagree on some as well.
I agree with you that the monkey chanting and throwing bananas on the pitch is vile. I will go one step further and say that racism is vile. I also agree that banning historic artifacts is fundamentally flawed and could inadvertently prompt unsavory elements of society to action.

That does not mean that I disagree with banning provocative artifacts for a period of time that will allow the effected parties to heal the wounds caused by the presence of the artifacts in question. Then reintroducing the artifacts when they have lost their ability to insight violence.

I don’t agree that the governing body of Football, or anyone else for that matter, should turn a blind eye. This is not entirely a political issue. It is also a social issue that happens to be against European Human Rights Law. So if the governing bodies do not take a stand to combat racism in Football they are breaking European Law.
http://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/eurocomE.htm
http://europa.eu.int/pol/rights/index_en.htm

You advocate “Economic Punishment” to stimulate change.
I find it ironic that you use a reference to Germany as indirect support for your argument that “economic punishment” is the answer to social change and combating racism.
Was it not “economic punishment” in the form of accords, in the Treaty of Versailles, enforced by the League of Nations that created the social climate in Germany after the First World War?
In simple terms "Economic Punishment" created a socio-political climate that allowed The National Socialists to come to power in Germany. Their well documented actions subsequently lead to the banning of Nazi symbols in post-war Germany.

Yes racism is simmering under the surface in parts of Europe.
It is also simmering under the surface in many parts of the United States as well.

Sports governing bodies in the United States have made rules and by-laws addressing racism.
Has that eliminated Racism? No!
Has it hurt attendance at sporting events in America? No!
Can I take my kids to a sporting event in America and not be exposed or subjected to Racial Abuse? Yes I can!

Your question about "what is next?".
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but all of your examples, excluding the haircut reference, are already "socially" unacceptable.
Will you stop chanting them? probably not, but that does not make them any more socially acceptable.

Old Ska · 12-04-2005, 04:44 PM

There is a lot there to respond to Deuce, but I think enough of it is so deeply connected to worldview that it is not appropriate for discussion here (the various traits of racism in the US and Europe, for example).

I am going to see the Packers next Sunday night. The Green Bay crowd is probably a lot like an Italian soccer crowd...passionate about their team on a religious level that spans many generations and is connected to deeply help traditions, etc. Also, the Green Bay area is ethnically homogenous (like much of Italy). There will probably be as many black guys on the field as in the stadium (okay, that is an exageration, but not a huge one. The same could probably be said for RSL as well.) But if I start throwing out racist comments you can bet that I would be in trouble from neighboring fans. But if 1,000 of us start doing it we would probably get a reaction from players as well, and I hope they would walk off the field. But have the NFL stop the game? Or the refs? Unthinkable.

I have 2 good friends who I used to be on a bar-league softball team with who were on the Packers, and I loved to hear about what went on down on the field. In one on one match-ups on the field any taunt or insult is fair. Holmgren, after he went to Seattle, even told his players which of the Pack was particularly susceptible to racist, religious or ethnic jibes and encouraged his players to get into those players' heads by using them. I think that is pretty slimy, but it is also fair. Psychology is a big part of any sport, in some cases it is even the biggest part of the sport. I hate that the Mexico fans chanted 'Osama' at us, but at the same time it was an absolutely brilliant piece of psychological warfare. When my Irish-Catholic bar indoor team plays the Italian Community Center team you know that some pretty ridiculous stuff gets said on the field, but that is part of our rivalry and we are all cool afterwards. My co-ed team is sponsered by a lesbian bookstore, and opposing females can be particularly vicious in their on-field banter, but I have never heard one of the tough lesbians on my team complain. Why take this one thing (racism) and give it privelegded status? And who decides what is racist? Are chants against the Tottenham Jews anti-semitic? Some of those chants are really vile on the surface if you don't know the history of the nickname.

Combating racism with the FIFA equivalent of the atomic bomb isn't the answer (and this isn't even addressing whether monkey chants ARE racist or not, which is another deep deep question). I guess I am a "marketplace of ideas" guy. Let all the possible viewpoints out there have the same weight and let people decide from among them with as little interference as possible. (I would say that the overly restrictive nature of the agreements ending WWI was exactly what allowed Hitler to come to power, in the same way that equally stupid laws on nazi paraphenalia in Germany and elsewhere are contributing to modern neo-naziism.) If good black players decide "that is not an environment I want to play in" only the team and the fans will suffer. If they decide that the environment is worth what the football career offers them, they could go for it. Why in the world would the governing bodies have to get involved? It just makes no sense...even worse, it is the kind of mindless, ignorant, fascist response to a problem (racism) that the problem (racism) itself is.

Section 37 · 12-04-2005, 07:41 PM

The "marketplace of ideas" is a nice thought, but we should remember that having a marketplace of ideas does not make all ideas equal. The idea that racism is somehow an acceptable expression of economic or political concerns is intellectually lazy and socially irresponsible.

Racist and bigoted chants (like the monkey chant, an unambiguous racist chant- don't pretend that it might not have been racist) deserves nothing more than to be discarded on the scrap heap.

Racism and bigotry has no place in our society. It's our duty as fans to police each other. Those who would push a racist agenda at a game must understand that while they are free to say what they wish, their speech has consequences.

Consequences like having their @$$ kicked up around their ears.

Taking a stand against certain behavior is not fascism.

Racist chants were tolerated a few decades ago, but not today. The "Romo Homo" chant is tolerated today, but in a few years, it too will disappear.