Racism and football

Section 37 · 12-10-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deuce

Buttermilk or Country Style? w/ gravy or without?

I'm an equal opportunity buscuit eater. er, I mean, son of a biscuit eater.

StarsOnSunday · 12-12-2005, 03:49 AM

Yeah, I know I'm getting into this late, but I got a C+ in Philosophy 101 at UVSC and have something to add. Here's something to think about. Is making elephant noises at an Inuit racist? I propose that it is not. It is silly. No offense should be taken, it is as ridiculous as calling the rose bush a wrench. How could anyone possibly get upset at such nonsense? Equally, how could making monkey noises at a black man be anything other than nonsense? By labeling the monkey chants racist, one grants validity to the idea that the two are somehow related; therein lies the racism. Essentially, by labeling the chants as racist, the labeler has become the racist. The racism lies not in the chant, but it the labeling of the chant as racist. I myself, do not see any correlation between the black player and the monkey chant. Therefore, I cannot see the chant as anything other than nonsense. The question is: Why does/should nonsense offend people?

montgjules · 12-12-2005, 10:33 AM

It is racist if/because that is the intent of the person making the monkey noise.

Deuce · 12-12-2005, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarsOnSunday

Yeah, I know I'm getting into this late, but I got a C+ in Philosophy 101 at UVSC and have something to add. Here's something to think about. Is making elephant noises at an Inuit racist? I propose that it is not. It is silly. No offense should be taken, it is as ridiculous as calling the rose bush a wrench. How could anyone possibly get upset at such nonsense? Equally, how could making monkey noises at a black man be anything other than nonsense? By labeling the monkey chants racist, one grants validity to the idea that the two are somehow related; therein lies the racism. Essentially, by labeling the chants as racist, the labeler has become the racist. The racism lies not in the chant, but it the labeling of the chant as racist. I myself, do not see any correlation between the black player and the monkey chant. Therefore, I cannot see the chant as anything other than nonsense. The question is: Why does/should nonsense offend people?

Well first of all good job at getting a C+; that is pretty good.

I am not going to explain to you why society has correlated the two. If you don’t know then maybe you should have taken an anthropology course instead of philosophy.

It is not elephant noises at Inuit, however I believe that if society had somehow correlated elephants and the Inuit people in a derogatory manner, I am sure that the Inuit people would take offense and elephant noises would be offensive to them.

I wish that we lived in such an idealistic society that words and actions did not convey such hatred or in a world where people all realized how destructive it is to ridicule and humiliate one race of people simply because they feel that the race they belong to is somehow superior.

I think your post brings up a valid point, however that point would be more appropriate in a classroom. It is an idealistic notion, and it certainly does not fit in the real world. I say this, simply because the monkey chanting actually exists in the real world. And there is no doubt that the monkey chanting is directed only at black players and the intent is clear.

It is easy to hide behind an ideal. It is easy to say that the people on the receiving end of racism are just being over sensitive. Until you have been on the receiving end of it you have no idea. The crap I went through growing up was mild in comparison to some situations but still incredibly alien to someone that has not experienced it.

I find it disturbing that people still attempt to justify monkey chanting and try to convince people that it is not racially motivated.

Do you have the courage of your convictions?
I challenge you to go explain to a black person why you feel monkey chanting is not racially motivated.
I challenge you to go by yourself to any black person or group of black people and monkey chant at them. But do it by yourself, not in a group of people. What do you think will happen? Be sure to call them all racists for taking offense to your monkey chanting. Be sure to use the same argument that you used above. Again, what do you think will happen? Then come back here and report your findings. I will bet you can’t do it.

Is it because you know that your actions will be interpreted a certain way?

Old Ska · 12-12-2005, 11:16 AM

Okay, I just gotta say it since you are trying to label Stars a racist (when he is most definately not anything close to it).

The irony of a guy who was (is?) super into Kiss, to the extent that his screen name is based on a KISS song reprimanding anyone in the world for racism is more than I can bear. Gene Simmons (a self-admited racist) says that Ace Frehley's racism made him uncomfortable.

All anyone is saying is that these are extremely complex issues. They are not black and white (so to speak) and to take such an approach to them is close-minded in the extreme.

StarsOnSunday · 12-12-2005, 11:24 AM

Well put, Deuce. Last night I was feeling a little existential and decided to argue for argument’s sake. Sorry if I raised anyone's blood pressure. The key element I will take from your post is the differences between objective, classroom analysis and subjective, real word situations.

Jules is assuming that conveying racism is always the intent of the chanter. By making monkey noises, could the intent ever be to simply disrupt a corner kick or get into a player's head, without harboring feelings of racism?

I think that although the intent may not be to convey racism, the chant itself is inherently racist because it singles out black players by race. I have never heard of a monkey chant targeting anyone but black players. Therefore, without delving into the ugly and erroneous connotations of blacks and monkeys, the chant can be categorized as racist in that it singles out players by race.

Deuce · 12-12-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Ska

Okay, I just gotta say it since you are trying to label Stars a racist (when he is most definately not anything close to it).

The irony of a guy who was (is?) super into Kiss, to the extent that his screen name is based on a KISS song reprimanding anyone in the world for racism is more than I can bear. Gene Simmons (a self-admited racist) says that Ace Frehley's racism made him uncomfortable.

All anyone is saying is that these are extremely complex issues. They are not black and white (so to speak) and to take such an approach to them is close-minded in the extreme.

I can not see anywhere in my post where I say that SOS is a racist. so stop trying to create conflict where there is none.

I was directing my response to Stars' post, I was not inviting you to interpret my post so that you may take a different approach to try to stir up trouble. Your reason for replying is to come to the defense of someone that appears from all instances is more than capable of doing so himself and your reaction again shows that you are only attempting to stir up trouble between people, be it for your own entertainment or for some vendetta I do not know but please... please just stop.

I am sorry if you feel compelled to respond, but looking in my response for a personal slight against someone like Stars whom I happen to admire as a very good person, is really sad.

Also If you think being a fan of a rock band, that happens to have a racist in it, makes my stance less legitimate, then you really are reaching...
So please just stop.

Deuce · 12-12-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarsOnSunday

Well put, Deuce. Last night I was feeling a little existential and decided to argue for argument’s sake. Sorry if I raised anyone's blood pressure. The key element I will take from your post is the differences between objective, classroom analysis and subjective, real word situations.

Jules is assuming that conveying racism is always the intent of the chanter. By making monkey noises, could the intent ever be to simply disrupt a corner kick or get into a player's head, without harboring feelings of racism?

I think that although the intent may not be to convey racism, the chant itself is inherently racist because it singles out black players by race. I have never heard of a monkey chant targeting anyone but black players. Therefore, without delving into the ugly and erroneous connotations of blacks and monkeys, the chant can be categorized as racist in that it singles out players by race.

Thanks SOS. You didn't get my blood pressure up. I was trying to respond in an objective way.
I think your argument and viewpoint is legitimate. I wish the world were as advanced as the ideal you put forward.

montgjules · 12-12-2005, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarsOnSunday

Jules is assuming that conveying racism is always the intent of the chanter.

If if I was "assuming that conveying racism is always the intent of the chanter" I don't think I would have said

Quote:

Originally Posted by montgjules

It is racist if/because that is the intent of the person making the monkey noise.

Notice the term "if" ... you were talking philosophically and I was answering your philosophical question in the same vein. What I was trying to say is ... At the point the chanter has that intention, it becomes racist to that person and the way it is interpreted cannot change the racial intent. In the same way, if somebody says something completely innocent and it is interpreted as racist, that doesn't change the fact that it was said with innocent intent.

Both parties involved have a responsibility to try to understand one another, but some people prefer not to try. Which is relevant to this thread in more ways than one.

utah_heretic · 12-12-2005, 02:57 PM

It occurs to me that there is an interesting dichotomy which has revealed itself over the course of these posts...

On the one hand, we want to be able to say that the intent of the chanter is not irrelavent, and at the same time, we want to say that the interpretation of the chantee matters. I'm not particularly convinced that talking about racism in terms of these unquantifiable entities gets us anywhere. Proving somebody's intention is inherently problematic, and basing a definition of racism on a single person's interpretation of an act bears a substantial burden of showing that the interpretation itself is reasonable under the circumstances.

WRT the particular incident of monkey chanting...

I guess one of the things which had been bugging me for a while about the whole Inter fan issue was that I had a difficult time fathoming how "monkey chanting" would even be applicable in the US. After all, people who are loosely grouped under the African American population subheading in the US census often have only a vague connection to specifically African culture or heretige, but rather represent a wide range of cultures and nationalities, the majority being American or Central/South American. How would "monkey chanting" at Eddie Johnson, for example, even apply? One would look on a person who did this as some kind of sub-human neo-social-darwinist, because there's no socio-contextual reference for a monkey chant. I would expect that most people's reaction to it would be that it is completely ridiculous, and one might also have a burning desire to eradicate the primitive cerebral cortex which could have made a connection between the two (guilty).

But the event in question actually occurred in Europe...specifically Italy. Now I won't pretend to know a great deal about African-specific racism in Europe, because I have done little more than visit. However, I do know that people specifically from Africa are far less of a cultural oddity than in the better part of the U.S. I am also aware that some people have argued that much of it's presence stems from resentment about immigration, in the same way that Turks are (or have historically been) despised and feared in Germany.

Okay, back to topic...
They chanted monkey noises at the player, and by doing so, made an ipso-facto correlation between monkeys and the the player in question, Marc Zoro. Now, Ska made an interesting point in that the opposition fans weren't chanting monkey noises at all of the black players on the field. I suspect that we are making the mistake of being overly broad in our definition of racism. After all, the Inter fans were well aware that Zoro was from the Ivory Coast. Nevertheless, just because their chant wasn't directed at all black players of all nationalities, doesn't mean that it was not Racist. After all, Ska was kind enough to point out that racism is closely tied to ethnic distinctions.

I guess that all I wanted to say (in what has turned into a very long post) is that it is quite possible to evaluate whether a fan incident was racially loaded without trying to boil it down to intention and interpretation. Before you say it Ska, there are clearly potential mitigating contextual circumstances which might cloud the issue...(suppose Marc Zoro had for example revealed in a soccer magazine expose his amorous feelings towards green monkeys for example)...but clearly in the absence of so widely known a set of mitigating circumstances, this was a racially motivated chant, even if it's socio-political context might have been limited.