MLS & USL

[AreliusII]

Posted on Fri, Apr. 29, 2005



Reorganization places Thunder in new league
Minnesota part of 12-team circuit after A-League folds
BY TIM LEIGHTON
Pioneer Press

Little bothers Minnesota Thunder goalkeeper Joe Warren, be it an opponent on a breakaway or a short-range missile fired at him after a defensive breakdown. He can handle those things, which is why he is one of the top professional goalkeepers in the United States.

What he struggles with, though, as he enters his seventh season as a professional soccer player, are the continual tutorials to interested observers wondering where the Thunder play and what their league entails.

"It's something I have dealt with,'' said Warren, 30, a St. Paul native. "I get that same feeling in my stomach. Soccer doesn't get the publicity like any of the other major sports, so people just don't know. It is a humbling thing. Sometimes I get upset. It's all internal; I won't show it.''

Unlike the major pro baseball, football, basketball and hockey leagues, the structure of pro soccer requires an explanation. And it just got trickier.

The once-prestigious A-League, considered a small step down from top-level Major League Soccer, no longer exists. The 21 remaining teams, including the Thunder, were divided this season into two divisions under the umbrella of the United Soccer League.

Minnesota, an A-League power since joining in 1997, is one of 12 teams in the First Division. Nine more teams are in the less-competitive Second Division. Less than a decade ago, the A-League had 26 teams. Contraction, combined with teams that were on financial and competitive life support, prompted a split into divisions.

"Fans that don't really know what is going on probably think (our league) is rinky-dink,'' Warren said. "I have to educate them. I have to explain that we play in a level a small step down from MLS and that our budgets aren't as big. The money may not be there, but it is still pretty darn good soccer.''

Is it really?

At one time, it seemed the only thing that separated MLS and the A-League was big-time money. An MLS team has an annual budget of $12 million-$15 million. An A-League team's annual budget was about $1 million. This season, the Thunder's budget is about $1.2 million.

There was a close relationship between the leagues, too, with MLS using A-League clubs as farm systems for players. MLS moved away from that two years ago and has created its own reserve teams and expanded rosters.

"The gap between the two leagues has increased a bit,'' said Bill Manning, a former general manager of the Thunder and MLS's Tampa Bay Mutiny before they were contracted. He is now a vice president of marketing for the Philadelphia Eagles.

"The talent level is decent (in the USL). I've been disappointed, though, from the outside looking in that the league hasn't been able to continue a relationship with the MLS," Manning said. "It was a strong bond. You had players and executives going from the A-League to MLS. There was an appreciation for the talent. The casual fan has a problem knowing the difference between the two. Frankly, they say (the USL) isn't MLS.''

Tony Sanneh, a St. Paul native and former World Cup star for Team USA, sees differences, too. He began his professional career with the Thunder and now plays for Chicago of MLS.

"I think (MLS players) respect them. Nobody looks down on them,'' Sanneh said of MLS attitudes toward the USL. "It is a competitive league, but at the same time, it is definitely not as professional because financially they can't compete.''

Thunder President and minority owner Jim Froslid acknowledges a gap between the leagues, but only in terms of marketing. He said Los Angeles is the only money-making team in MLS. Rochester, Portland and Montreal have been in the black in the A-League. Minnesota has been close, but it hasn't broken even financially in its 16-year history.

"I view it as it is: We are a second-division league,'' Froslid said. "I think that the leagues aren't that far apart. The best example is when you get them on the field.''

Each season, A-League teams, and now USL teams get a chance to play MLS teams during the U.S. Open Cup tournament. Upsets have occurred and will continue. Last summer, the Thunder defeated Los Angeles before losing to San Jose in a shootout in the quarterfinals. In 1998, Rochester beat four MLS teams to win the U.S. Open Cup title.

Many individual performances have opened the eyes of MLS management.

"There is a wide range of players that have come through our league that have had wide-ranging success in MLS over the years,'' Thunder coach Buzz Lagos said.

The USL's First Division could create even more of a stir this season. The split of divisions allowed the weeding out of less-competitive and less-committed teams. Fewer teams in the first division, however, will mean more travel, which could put additional strain on budgets.

"The strongest teams have survived,'' Froslid said. "That means the level of play is higher than ever.''

Closing the gap, on the field at least, appeals to Warren.

"More than anything else, that might be the truest test,'' he said. "I think time will tell.''


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[Merrill]

I know this is pie in the sky crazy talk that you usually only get from the BigSoccer boards, but I'm going to spout it all the same.

Salt Lake's successful opening game day made me think a little about where MLS should expand to next. I think San Antonio is a good idea really, because the only competition, like in Salt Lake, is the NBA. Unfortunately for SA's soccer team, their NBA team is a juggernaut instead of a lottery candidate. And it appears as though the spurs and the Jazz will remain that way for a while. But I was thinking that it wouldn't be a bad idea for MLS to try and pick up a few more cities like Salt Lake, and Columbus in their expansion. Maybe Portland and Rochester would be the best place to go. Of course ownership is the stumbling block there.

Okay, now we get to the crazy talk, and the tie in to the USL story. I think, and I know they won't, but I think that MLS should buy USL, or at least establish a very good relationship with USL. Then, as the league forges through this whole expansion thing, they should do the following. If someone wants to expand into MLS, they must first start an A-League (or whatever they call them now) team. Then they work on their attendance and stadium, until they are ready to join the big boys. When they are ready, they get promoted into the Majors. That way MLS doesn't get teams that might or might not succeed. It is already known. They arrive in the big leagues with a stadium and everything. This would also only work if the policy of promoting the top A-League teams was widely known. So fans know that if they support their team, it will one day play the big boys. And politicians don't feel obliged to stand in the way because it may not fly. I think it would be a great idea. It would weed out the pretenders. Miami and Tampa wouldn't have to fold because they could build their base up. I don't know if I'm expressing this very well, but I think it would be a great way to get things going expansion-wise. And I think it would pump up the A-League too because the teams would be striving to bring in a good crowd and get a field to play on etc.

Once MLS arrived at a certain number of teams, 20 or whatever, they could even go so far as to relegate and promote teams if there is one ready to go up to the bigs. Although nobody scream at me, I'm not really proposing relegation/promotion, I don't know if I'm even in favor of it, it just always comes up in discussions like this.

Could this possibly work?

[AreliusII]

Originally Posted by Snarf

I'm not really proposing relegation/promotion

Why the hell not?

I dream of the day when we can have a first, second, third, and maybe even fourth division of soccer in this country with relegation and promotion, etc. It seems like the perfect way to make it happen would be for MLS to join with USL. USL would provide the second, third and fourth divisions. Just add water.

Then our soccer would really start progressing when we raise the stakes like this...

[bordelais7]

Why the hell not?

If you haven't noticed, MLS isn't exactly selling out stadiums left and right. The markets that MLS are in have been carefully chosen based on several factors (potential fan base, investor, stadiums, potential media coverage and other exposure, etc.). I think it would be an INCREDIBLY poor financial decision on the part of MLS to risk a scenario where LA or NY drops into the "4th division", while Kalamazoo is playing against Walla Walla in the MLS Premier League championship game.

I love the added dimension that pro/rel brings to different leagues around the world, but I think for now I'd rather have a league with a business plan that will keep itself around for more than a year.

[Stucki]

MLS would have to get to about 20 teams before we can even look at it anyway. Besides, with the resources in New York and LA, I doubt that those clubs would ever be in that much trouble.

[Merrill]

Originally Posted by mrstucki

MLS would have to get to about 20 teams before we can even look at it anyway. Besides, with the resources in New York and LA, I doubt that those clubs would ever be in that much trouble.

New York can't seem to buy a win. You'd think with all the mafiosos in the NY area someone could fix a game or two for those guys and get their franchise going.

My suggestion of relegation would definitely be after twenty or so teams become strong stable franchises in the major league. I think they would also have to have more than one team in the markets like NY and LA. We've already got two in LA. Chicago is considering adding a second. And if Harrison ever becomes a reality, I bet it wouldn't be long before they have their second team as well.

The real thing I'm wondering is if you guys think that the A-League could be used to establish franchises before they hit MLS. Then they get brought up to the Majors, with a stadium an owner and the whole bit. Investors wouldn't have to blow their money on the ten million right away either. It would would be good asked.

[Rover]

Originally Posted by Snarf

New York can't seem to buy a win. You'd think with all the mafiosos in the NY area someone could fix a game or two for those guys and get their franchise going.

My suggestion of relegation would definitely be after twenty or so teams become strong stable franchises in the major league. I think they would also have to have more than one team in the markets like NY and LA. We've already got two in LA. Chicago is considering adding a second. And if Harrison ever becomes a reality, I bet it wouldn't be long before they have their second team as well.

The real thing I'm wondering is if you guys think that the A-League could be used to establish franchises before they hit MLS. Then they get brought up to the Majors, with a stadium an owner and the whole bit. Investors wouldn't have to blow their money on the ten million right away either. It would would be good asked.

For the record, like the vast majority of soccer fans in America I want to see a relegation/promotion system. But I don't think we'll see if for a decade or two, if we see it at all.

I'll state the obvious and say that ownership issues are the biggest impediment to relegation/promotion and ties to USL. It's been said many times, but it's still very true that American owners will not easily adapt to a system whereby their investment is downgraded by a poor record. It's not the way business is done here, and it's a major shift in philosophy as well as a big risk to an investment.

And we're not even to ownership yet. Single entity means that the big boys like Uncle Dave are "Investor-Operators," not owners, so there are plenty of others issues tied to that. Will these investors lose their cut of the league if their team is relegated?

No, we'll have to evolve from single entity to franchise ownership before we can realistically talk about r/p in MLS.

As for ties between USL and MLS, the most we can hope for right now is a major/minor league setup formalized for better player development. That's looking even less likely since MLS now has the reserve "league," but it's also hampered by past relations between MLS and USL. MLS has been ambivalent toward the USL from the beginning, when what became the A League also wanted First Division status.

The suggestion of using the USL to develop not just players but teams is intriguing, but I don't see that making it past the MLS leadership either. They're still thinking in terms of matching an investor with a city and a stadium deal to form new clubs. They want the major league tag from the beginning. Maybe that's why Rochester keeps getting overlooked.

As much as we'd like to see r/p, I don't think it's even close to being on the table at this point. That's not good news to purists and those who know how intense a relegation battle can be, but it's where we are at the moment.

One step at a time. I'm still celebrating the end of MLS Shootouts and the gameclocks counting down and not up.

[SoccerPrime]

Miami and Tampa did not fail because of the lack of fanbase.
They failed because of ownership (or the lack-there-of).
Miami's owner wanted out, big time.
Tampa was owned by the MLS and never actually had a owner.

And don't get me started Rovers.
🙁
Bitter in Florida

However, I love the USL and the idea of a greater link between the USL teams and MLS would be great.
But I don't think these two groups are talking right now. Sorry.

[Merrill]

Originally Posted by SoccerPrime

Miami and Tampa did not fail because of the lack of fanbase.
They failed because of ownership (or the lack-there-of).
Miami's owner wanted out, big time.
Tampa was owned by the MLS and never actually had a owner.

And don't get me started Rovers.
🙁
Bitter in Florida

However, I love the USL and the idea of a greater link between the USL teams and MLS would be great.
But I don't think these two groups are talking right now. Sorry.

That's what I'm talking about. Miami and Tampa wouldn't have failed in the MLS, because their problems would have been discovered at the A-League level.

I doubt the two groups are talking, but they should.