RSL @ Red Cows

Old Ska · 08-27-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose Luis Luviano

Chicago once beat KC 7-0.

In 1998, the Galaxy beat Dallas 8-1. Graziani scored directly from a corner kick for the Burn in that game. It was a beautiful goal.

Thanks for the info, July 4th 2001, and sometime in 1998 respectively.

Aerick · 08-27-2006, 09:26 AM

I thought what Robin Fraser said during the KSL commentary of the game was spot on. Although it sounds like many of you would disagree with him on this even though he probably knows more about the game than most of us (if not all of us) here.

We went in there to win that game, a tie wasn't acceptable - it's the play-off run, and even ties might not cut it for this team. When New York scored that first goal, they needed to make up 2 goals, and you can't rely on bunker ball to get that for you. The way I understand it, bunker ball is designed to get you a tie, and the next most likely scenario is a loss (due to the multitudinous scoring opportunities by the opposing side). With that in mind, RSL couldn't play bunker ball after that first goal was scored, they had to take risks. Unfortunately, those risks resulted in a second goal - at which point they had to take more risks. I don't see the error in strategy there. A 6 point loss is still a loss - same as a 1 point loss - in that you get 0 points. It seemed to me that the team seemed willing to take risks for the unlikely win. It also seems to me that no one expected for those risks to turn into a 6-0 loss. I don't think that would have occurred to anyone.

Therefore, I don't understand how you can start calling for the head of the coach. He took some risks that, frankly, I'm glad he took. Unfortunately, the gamble didn't pay off.

knowwonnose · 08-27-2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerick

I thought what Robin Fraser said during the KSL commentary of the game was spot on. Although it sounds like many of you would disagree with him on this even though he probably knows more about the game than most of us (if not all of us) here.

We went in there to win that game, a tie wasn't acceptable - it's the play-off run, and even ties might not cut it for this team. When New York scored that first goal, they needed to make up 2 goals, and you can't rely on bunker ball to get that for you. The way I understand it, bunker ball is designed to get you a tie, and the next most likely scenario is a loss (due to the multitudinous scoring opportunities by the opposing side). With that in mind, RSL couldn't play bunker ball after that first goal was scored, they had to take risks. Unfortunately, those risks resulted in a second goal - at which point they had to take more risks. I don't see the error in strategy there. A 6 point loss is still a loss - same as a 1 point loss - in that you get 0 points. It seemed to me that the team seemed willing to take risks for the unlikely win. It also seems to me that no one expected for those risks to turn into a 6-0 loss. I don't think that would have occurred to anyone.

Therefore, I don't understand how you can start calling for the head of the coach. He took some risks that, frankly, I'm glad he took. Unfortunately, the gamble didn't pay off.

I'm with you. I can't believe the whiny-ness of so many fans. This is a good team that played a poor game. Stewart put the coach in a difficult situation with a pitiful foul. The coach did what any coach would have to do, choose a new tactic on the fly. That's never easy. You have to put Akwari in. You can't leave Pope and his beat up body in the back line alone with two rookies. As far as why take the rookie midfielder out, who else are you going to take out. You can't take the last week's POW out, he's been hot. You can't take Talley, as some have pointed out, he might be RSL's MVP, if not Cunny. You can't take Cunny out. As much as some would argue take Kreis out, you have to realize, he may not be a physical presence but his leadership is still important. Williams has been good leading up to the game too. As good as Mehdi is, he was the only choice. As hopeful as I am by what I see, his talent is yet to equate to RSL success. Statistically, he was the weakest midfielder on the field. Ballouchy had to come off.

As for the whiny anti-Ellinger "fan". I've had it with them. After doing some scanning of other team's boards during hard times and good, I believe that those posters have proven to be whinnier than just about any "fans" I can find.

I know that those comments won't make me popular. I know that there's a jr. high student comeback or two waiting. But I don't care. That attitude is making the losses even more difficult and has ruined the good wins.

praxis · 08-27-2006, 12:50 PM

I think any team is going to have a game go in the crapper. We had this one. I think a lot depends on how we play this next game. If we come out and are on fire, then we know this game was a misstep. I think it is too early to call for the coaches head.
I do think that Kreis is starting to falter. I would prefer to see the captain's armband on Talley. He is a great organizer and he lets people know how unhappy he is and pushes hard on every play. Kreis is a great player, but age is catching up to him. I would have pulled Kries out in that situation. I don't know if Akwari was the answer though.
I also saw a lot of ballwatching later as the game was going darker and darker. I don't like the idea of giving up on a game because you are behind. That seems to have been the old RSL mindset. We have to fight until the bitter end.

prk166 · 08-27-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowwonnose

I'm with you. I can't believe the whiny-ness of so many fans. This is a good team that played a poor game. Stewart put the coach in a difficult situation with a pitiful foul. The coach did what any coach would have to do, choose a new tactic on the fly. That's never easy. You have to put Akwari in. You can't leave Pope and his beat up body in the back line alone with two rookies. As far as why take the rookie midfielder out, who else are you going to take out. You can't take the last week's POW out, he's been hot. You can't take Talley, as some have pointed out, he might be RSL's MVP, if not Cunny. You can't take Cunny out. As much as some would argue take Kreis out, you have to realize, he may not be a physical presence but his leadership is still important. Williams has been good leading up to the game too. As good as Mehdi is, he was the only choice. As hopeful as I am by what I see, his talent is yet to equate to RSL success. Statistically, he was the weakest midfielder on the field. Ballouchy had to come off.

Don't make excuses. Ellinger's a coach. He's had plenty of experience and plenty of time to anticipate these things. It may be tough for a team to do much a man down but it should NOT be a tough decision for a coach. Part of preparing for a game is that he asks the what if questions? He should have an idea of what he'd like to do if he loses a defender early on. He should have an idea who he's going to use as subs and under what circumstances he'd bring them into the game. I think there are valid reasons for defending Ellingers actions but there is no need to imply that it was impossible to prep. Is he choosing a new tactic on the fly? Sure. But he should have in mind things he may or may not want to do during the game depending on how things go. Coachs at this level should be not only used to be adept at choosing new tactics on the fly. If their team goes up by two goals, they may pull off a striker and add a DM to help clog the middle. If their team is down, they may put on a fast winger to try to stretch the opponents line. Surely he's thought about what he'll do if he loses a guy in the game to a red card. I think Ellinger thought taking Medhi out for Akwari was the thing to do. I think the 2nd half showed he was 1/2 wrong. Putting Akwari in was the right thing to do. You're on the road and I'm not sure 3 in the back has ever worked well for RSL. But Medhi wasn't the right player to take off.

As for stats, what do you mean? Medhi suffered 2 fouls in the short time he was in. It took Kries most of the game to get to that. Klein only had one FS and the same with Williams. So how do the stats show Medhi wasn't doing what you need to be done? And at that, what player holds onto the ball the best on the field? Medhi? What player is the most composed with the ball? Mehdi. Who has a better work rate, Williams or Medhi? You need that when you're down a guy. Kries, Williams, and Klein all should've came off before Medhi when RSL goes a man down. 2 of those 3 would've given enough "leadership" on the pitch for what it's worth. The only chance you have is to hold on to the ball as much as possible because once you give it up, it's going to be that much harder to get it back cuz now you only have 9 guys to chase instead of 10. We've seen teams loose a guy early in a game and not get blown out. They got blown out because they couldn't hold on to the ball enough. They got blown out because they weren't stringing together passes. And for all that leadership that Kries, Williams and whomever was supposed to provide, they didn't provide it. They didn't help the team stay organized and keep it's shape. Their leadership didn't seem to prevent the players from giving up after the 2nd goal. And just look at the game, how many passes did RSL string together when they got the ball? IIRC between the 1st and 2nd goal they only strung together more than 1 pass once, when they managed a nice build up.

I'm not trying to argue that Ellinger should've been able to pull a rabitT out of his hat and win this. And we really shouldn't dwell too much on that one substitution in one game. But I think others will look at it and add it to their list of subsitutions that confuse the crap out of them. And I think in this game it was pivotal. This game hurt RSL more than just a lost. Things are close in the playoff race and it very well could come down to goal difference as a tie breaker. Losing 6-0 put RSL back in the negative column when they in fact were better than LA before the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowwonnose

I As for the whiny anti-Ellinger "fan". I've had it with them. After doing some scanning of other team's boards during hard times and good, I believe that those posters have proven to be whinnier than just about any "fans" I can find.

I remember Columbus fans whining left and right about Andrulis the year they won the supporters shield and had the best record in the league. Could it be the RSL fans seem to whine even more than that because Ellinger's done worse than most any other coach in the history of the MLS that you can find? It may be more but maybe it's proportional to their performance or overall lack of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerick

I Therefore, I don't understand how you can start calling for the head of the coach. He took some risks that, frankly, I'm glad he took. Unfortunately, the gamble didn't pay off.

I wouldn't call for his head over that. But I disagree about the talk of going for a win. The realistic chances for that went out the door when they went down a guy. You do everything you can for the tie because, as pointed out, it's a playoff race and every point counts.

noxum · 08-27-2006, 12:56 PM

With all do respect....Blah, Blah, Blah. It was a loss, a tremendously bad loss, but a loss. It's not like we haven't done it before. Stay on the band wagon and ride it into the playoffs. If they get eatin' up by Galaxy then lets start whining again....Oh yeah, and Ellinger still must be assigned a different post.

the Bardguy · 08-27-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowwonnose

I can't believe the whiny-ness of so many fans.

As for the whiny anti-Ellinger "fan". I've had it with them. After doing some scanning of other team's boards during hard times and good, I believe that those posters have proven to be whinnier than just about any "fans" I can find.

I know that those comments won't make me popular. I know that there's a jr. high student comeback or two waiting. But I don't care. That attitude is making the losses even more difficult and has ruined the good wins.

Hey "knowonenose" "noonecares". How's that for jr. high.

xlyte · 08-27-2006, 02:52 PM

There are reasons both for and against pulling medhi out for someone else, stats don't show the whole picture.

As for 6-0 yes its a bad scoreline. PRK you're right we have seen teams go a guy down early on and not get blown out. We've also seen teams go a guy down and still dominate the game. But we've also seen teams without going a guy down getting blown out.

These are some scores so far this year from various leagues/cups this year:
EPL:
Man Utd 5 - 1 Fulham

Eredivisie:
Ajax 5 - 0 RKC Waalwijk
Heerenveen 5 - 0 Willem II

Carling Cup
S'oton 5 - 2 Yeovil

UEFA Cup Qualifying:
Club Brugge 5 - 2 FK Suduva
Auxerre 5 - 1 OFK Belgrade
Ethnikos Achnas 5 - 0 Roeselare

English Championship
Norwich 5 - 1 Barnsley

and last year i remember boro losing i think it was 6-0 to Chelsea at the start of the season ... they later progressed to the UEFA Cup final. It is not uncommon to have a high scoring game (where one team does all/most of the scoring) and they can be one-offs. With the form Real has shown recently that is all this might be. That is why people are saying don't get at Ellinger yet.

Old Ska · 08-27-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlyte

With the form Real has shown recently that is all this might be. That is why people are saying don't get at Ellinger yet.

Real has also had two 6-match streaks without a win this season. Add this last match in with the 4 game win streak and we have a +1 goal differential over the last 5 MLS matches...therefore I fully understand why that does not completely redeem Ellinger in some minds.

And yes, soccer is a game of overal consequence, not immediate results...so I would say that a better measure than a single 4 match winning streak is the season-to-date W-L-T stats and goal differential. Even better, his career stats as a head coach.

I understand the "Ellinger is not going anywhere so let's just accept it" mentality, but I can't see any reason whatsoever to act like he is a good thing for RSL right now.

Whatever argument you can muster up for supporting Ellinger (aside from the defeatist "He ain't going anywhere" one) ends up being an argument against him.

knowwonnose · 08-27-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prk166

As for stats, what do you mean?

First, don't get me wrong. I think the world of Mehdi, but you guys are acting like Ellinger pulled Roldaninho out.

2006 Stats:
Ballouchy 1 G, 1 A
Kreis 6 G, 5 A
Talley 2 G, 7 A
Williams 1 G, 5 A
Klein 5 G, 4 A
Cunningham 14G, 9 A
http://real.saltlake.mlsnet.com/MLS/rsl/stats/index.jsp?club=rsl

As you can plainly see, ever other non-defender on the field has statistically produced more goals. While Mehdi has done a good job controlling the ball in midfield he's had a hard time figuring out how to turn that into goals. He's young, he'll get it soon. But Ellinger make the best possible decision last night. Give him a break on that at least. Last night's loss was a team loss, from Ellinger to Stewart to the 10 guys that stood around and gave up.