MLS playoff system is flawed

[clarette]

Originally Posted by AreliusIII

You're right. In Mexico, its called "La Liguilla." However, for the life of me, I don't see why we can't pattern our league after a single table champion (i.e. Premier League, La Primera Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc.).

Well, duh, that's because it would be UN-AMERICAN and for KOMMIEZ and stuff.

[Scholesy]

I must admit I favour a single league - scrap conferences - it makes it so difficult to see who is really the best when you play everyone a different amount of times each season. I think we would have a pretty different final this year if we all played each other an equal amount.

As for play offs, I don't like them. Parity is the issue with 'cups' but having said that it's not like there are many places where the cups are all equal. I mean look at England, really it's only the FA and the Premier League Champions that anyone cares about - unless you don't win either and then the others count. I wish that there was an inter league cup that had some international flavour in the Americas.

[Rover]

Between playoff discussions and relegation/promotion arguments, I can't remember how many times I've seen this stuff go in circles. For ten years. Over and over again.

MLS is a young league. It took us several years to convince MLSHQ to get the clocks to count up and not down. There was talk of widening the goals and having "kick-ins" instead of throw-ins. Seemingly everyone in the league leadership was terrified of ties. Or draws, if you like.

This was not based on some imagined need for Americans to do things differently than everyone else. If you've travelled, you know that just about every nationality likes to do things their own way. It's how they tell each other apart. No, it was because in 1996 (and 1997, 1998, 1999 . . .) MLS was considered a huge risk because:

1. Too few soccer fans (they thought);

2. Too many casual (at best) curiosity seekers who wouldn't come back if they saw real soccer because, as Jim Rome can tell you, soccer is boring.

So they added all this other stuff (remember the uniforms? Team names?) to set the league apart. No ties--we'll play an MLS Shootout that looks like the warmup drills I do for my U19 rec team. Clocks tick down in basketball, football and hockey so MLS will too. You get the picture.

As for a champion, it was determined that Americans are too dumb to understand the whole league championship/single table thing so here came the MLS Cup Playoffs. Americans understand playoffs. Of course, they kept changing the format so you never quite knew how the playoffs were set up, but we did get a championship game that could be played . . . ON TV! Network TV, no less.

See how we got here? Chasing TV coverage. Same reasoning with the All Star Game.

Has it worked? Not really. Playoff attendance usually drops from the regular season average and sellouts at MLS Cups are rare. I doubt it will sellout this year. American soccer fans are not dumb and have complained from the beginning about all this, just as most on this thread are doing now. Many have said the same things before.

Did any of the stupid rules help with the casual fan? Hard to say exactly, but I doubt it. I doubt many came back. And the hard core fans--you know, the SA- and Euro-snobs--went away in disgust and for the most part have not come back.

So there it is--an abridged history of how we got into this mess. But it's our mess, and I'll bet it doesn't change for awhile. I do think it will eventually change, but not under the present leadership. They love their Soccer Super Bowl and the imitation Vince Lombardi Trophy out there at League headquarters in New York.

But don't blame Americans and American soccer fans. Blame the leadership that doesn't trust us to understand the significance of a championship earned by outpointing everyone else over a season. So I'll hype the Supporters' Shield and consider it to be the real championship trophy.

Just remember that it could be worse. We could still be watching Ariel Graziani make his run as the shootout clock ticks away.

[dakendi]

EDIT--Rover just covered most of this. Curse my slow-typing hands!

One thing that makes a single league (no conferences) work so well is the threat of relegation or the chance to move up a division. We just don't have enough fans to support that many teams and/or divisions.

Not to mention that in single leagues, those teams that finish in the top of the table then are eligable for the (playoff-style) cup competitions. Those cups are often more prestigious than the league trophy, and are not always won by the best team (usually a team on a good run, like Liverpool last year).

Maybe the playoff system isn't ideal. Or there should be more recognition for the Supporter's Shield. But for now I think it's the best option.

Someday we'll have a strong enough system to support relegation. And I can't wait to send Chivas down as soon as we get the opportunity.

[fuegote]

There will never be relegation as long as there are owners. They would never allow their team to go to a lesser division...just a thought.

[Scholesy]

Originally Posted by Rover

Between playoff discussions and relegation/promotion arguments, I can't remember how many times I've seen this stuff go in circles. For ten years. Over and over again.

MLS is a young league. It took us several years to convince MLSHQ to get the clocks to count up and not down. There was talk of widening the goals and having "kick-ins" instead of throw-ins. Seemingly everyone in the league leadership was terrified of ties. Or draws, if you like.

This was not based on some imagined need for Americans to do things differently than everyone else. If you've travelled, you know that just about every nationality likes to do things their own way. It's how they tell each other apart. No, it was because in 1996 (and 1997, 1998, 1999 . . .) MLS was considered a huge risk because:

1. Too few soccer fans (they thought);

2. Too many casual (at best) curiosity seekers who wouldn't come back if they saw real soccer because, as Jim Rome can tell you, soccer is boring.

So they added all this other stuff (remember the uniforms? Team names?) to set the league apart. No ties--we'll play an MLS Shootout that looks like the warmup drills I do for my U19 rec team. Clocks tick down in basketball, football and hockey so MLS will too. You get the picture.

As for a champion, it was determined that Americans are too dumb to understand the whole league championship/single table thing so here came the MLS Cup Playoffs. Americans understand playoffs. Of course, they kept changing the format so you never quite knew how the playoffs were set up, but we did get a championship game that could be played . . . ON TV! Network TV, no less.

See how we got here? Chasing TV coverage. Same reasoning with the All Star Game.

Has it worked? Not really. Playoff attendance usually drops from the regular season average and sellouts at MLS Cups are rare. I doubt it will sellout this year. American soccer fans are not dumb and have complained from the beginning about all this, just as most on this thread are doing now. Many have said the same things before.

Did any of the stupid rules help with the casual fan? Hard to say exactly, but I doubt it. I doubt many came back. And the hard core fans--you know, the SA- and Euro-snobs--went away in disgust and for the most part have not come back.

So there it is--an abridged history of how we got into this mess. But it's our mess, and I'll bet it doesn't change for awhile. I do think it will eventually change, but not under the present leadership. They love their Soccer Super Bowl and the imitation Vince Lombardi Trophy out there at League headquarters in New York.

But don't blame Americans and American soccer fans. Blame the leadership that doesn't trust us to understand the significance of a championship earned by outpointing everyone else over a season. So I'll hype the Supporters' Shield and consider it to be the real championship trophy.

Just remember that it could be worse. We could still be watching Ariel Graziani make his run as the shootout clock ticks away.

Gosh you do take things so seriously. I don't think anyone was slagging off America or Americans, at least I wasn't. I thiknk most people know that things are good in comparison to where we started and that the league has moved on a lot, come a long way but that doesn't mean progression or progressive talk stops. The reason that the chnages we all enjoy today happened is partly due to people discussing it, making suggestions and the such. Is the current leaership going to listen, who knows? Probably not even them I suspect.

If discussion provokes some change for the good then great, if it doesn't then hey at least everyone knows what everyone else thinks. But jumping all over people because you have a superior understanding of all things doesn't really provoke open discussion now does it?

[Rover]

Originally Posted by Scholesy

Gosh you do take things so seriously. I don't think anyone was slagging off America or Americans, at least I wasn't. I thiknk most people know that things are good in comparison to where we started and that the league has moved on a lot, come a long way but that doesn't mean progression or progressive talk stops. The reason that the chnages we all enjoy today happened is partly due to people discussing it, making suggestions and the such. Is the current leaership going to listen, who knows? Probably not even them I suspect.

If discussion provokes some change for the good then great, if it doesn't then hey at least everyone knows what everyone else thinks. But jumping all over people because you have a superior understanding of all things doesn't really provoke open discussion now does it?

Scholsey, I'm still sorting through your sense of humor but I'm just going to assume that's your style. Seems to always end up personal, when it certainly is not for me. So onward and upward.

Nobody was jumped on. Can't figure where that came from. As I've said repeatedly, discussion is good. Part of discussion is disagreement, and so long as we all maintain decorum as we disagree, we can gain from it. No one has a corner on brilliance or the truth.

In any case, we're all big boys and girls. I post because I believe I've got something to add to the discussion. If I don't know much about something--and that's fairly often--then I don't post. I learn from others all the time. And, yes, Scholsey, I've learned from your posts too.

As for the topic, it's all just a matter of context. It's a long way from Doug Logan to Don Garber, and the Don pushed for the changes to the clock, playoffs, ties, and the like based on fan complaits. Learning did occur.

I just don't see a change from playoffs to single table championship happening anytime soon, at least partly due to the demands of sports television for canned "events." Hard to get that without a playoff.

I know I'd prefer a single season August-to-May model as well, but that's tough to pull off here due to weather issues. Many league cities get a good amount of snow in the winter. So at the very least we'd take a German-style 30-40 day break, or maybe even more. Whether we then go Argentinian/Mexican and have two seasons a year is another debate.

But if it was possible I'd like a single table, August-to-May schedule with the league championship won on points, not a playoff. Short of that, we should keep chipping away at each barrier. One hurdle at time.

[Merrill]

This is something I saw on BigSoccer, and I think it's the best suggestion there's ever been from all of us complainers on the boards (complainers are much worse over on BS, and someone there actually thought of it, amazing!)

We could have the best of both worlds. And here's how. The present season is composed thusly. Each team plays non-conference opponents once at home and once away. Each team plays conference opponents twice at home twice away. So why not do this instead.

The first 22 games of the season are the league championship. Every team plays every other team, once at home and once away. Single table, see. The Supporters Shield is given to the team who emerges with the best record. This is the League Champion.

After we do all this, we start the MLS Cup. The teams are divided into groups (read: conferences). They play everyone in their group once at home and once away. After these ten games, we take the top four from each group, and they have knockout rounds, until the champions of each group meet in the MLS Cup final. The winner receives the Alan Rothenberg trophy. They are MLS Cup Champion, winner of the cup tournament.

There is no more games played in this format than in our present format. And no more travel, because everyone plays everyone else the same number of times. There is a league champion, like everyone has been moaning for, and there is still a cup champion. And there is also the Open cup, completing the triple.

As time goes on, and teams come into the league, they might have to tweak with the format of the cup. Perhaps dropping the group stage, and just starting with the knockout from the beginning, maybe using the league results to create the seating for the knockout round or something.

Remember, I didn't come up with this. But all the same, I think it's freakin' brilliant. This would surely make everyone happy. And would leave us with all that we have already built, including the national TV championship game.

This doesn't change the problem that people always bring up about end of the season games being meaningless for the crappy teams, but that will always be with us. Then again, if you used the league results to determine seating for MLS Cup Knockout round, then those games might matter even to the last place teams. This year, Chivas USA might have been motivated to win a few more games if it might make it possible to not have to face San Jose in the Knockout round. Then again, they would just wind up with New England instead. Chivas never had a chance.

[Scholesy]

Brlliant! Just brilliant! I really like this idea.

[StarsOnSunday]

I like it too. Consider this addition as well: please let the better team play the championship match at their own stadium. I really don't understand why the final is played in Dallas. Dallas fans don't care, others are burdened by travel. Don't you think the fans deserve the chance to see their own team win the final?

Another idea. Take the top 4 MLS teams from a single table and pit them in a playoff against the top 4 teams from the Mexican league and have a North American championship.



Could you imagine the passion that would be brought to such a tournament?