answers and questions part a

[fuegote]

I begin my post by mentioning I have never, never posted anything confrontational on this board. I’ve been pretty low key, I’ve kept to myself and photoshop. My rep is from a lot of different people who find my photoshop funny.

Let’s give a time frame of events.

Saturday, April 16: this is the first home game of the season. Alianza and I got tickets to the game and sat in the NW corner of the stadium. We wanted to cheer like the fans in Europe cheer, but it was to no avail in our section. We did notice the Loyalists section and how much fun they were having.

I go home that night, I sign right up. I sign up for the forum. I pay my dues right then. I’m a Loyalist right from the start.

April 17, little fuegote is welcomed into the world.

Alianza and I start to become contributers to the forum. I post my farcs (photoshop work) and we’re having a great time. We invite the Bardguy and Pops to join us for the next match as well as trumpet man.

April 30: a chilly night, a 2-2 tie. We had 5 people sitting with us next to the Loyalist section. We chant, we have fun. Life is great.

I start to post some chant ideas. No one want so say anything, no one wants to implement them. Nothing.

<by this point, no mention of a new group has started>

May 14: the La GaLazy match. Trumpet man brings his trumpet for the first time. We have our cow bells for the first time as well.

we find a lot of people getting our age who are being asked to move by elder patrons are starting to move towards the Loyalist and sitting with us. They’re loud, they’re obnoxious, the flip the bird. They’re a fun group of guys.

<no mention of a new group>

I email Loyal1 and ask to completely redo the website (the loyalists.com) listen folks, you’re getting all sorts of publicity to the website and it’s not cutting the cheese. Prime, I know you’re busy, I understand that. I’m not ripping you at all. I just though I could help where I could.

Loyal1 says, “Several others have voluteered to take over the website. I need to find the
right time and way to make any changes because Ethan put in so much time
last fall and over the winter while we were getting everything started.

[fuegote]

We may wait until after the season even”
I understand that. I really do, but every time I’ve offered to help with the club, I have been shot down.
<I start to think about a new club, but think, “no I’m too busy>
May 18: Chivas. This is where, as a collective, we start to talk. We’re mouthy fans. We’ve “shamed” refs since I was in the 7th grade at my brother’s basketball games. I love to be loud.
We noticed pauses in our chants and we would start one. By this time we had a group of regular fellows that sat with us that joined in. It sounded as though we were competing but we weren’t. We just don’t like pauses in the cheers, songs, and chants.
We kept getting looks from the core loyalists section (by core we mean those who pretty much started the group). We (the brother’s enger) got a lot of attention that match from a lot of sources and we were getting a lot of strange looks from the Loyalists. I’m not reading anything into it, I’m not paranoid, that is a fact.
The Bardguy goes up the Loyal1 after the match and says, look we just want to help, we’re loud. We were told to put our energy into not shaming the refs both there and online.
<we start to plan for next year>
Nothing really happens, nothing really starts after that match. Nothing. We were going to plan for next year.
The WCQ. Keep in mind, alianza and I bought our tickets right after the opener and when we learned about the Loyalists. We wanted to sit with them. All week we were told we could squeeze in.
Game time we were told not to come in. That’s a little strange. We knew it was packed everywhere, why not squeeze in two of the more vocal members. Then we meet Old Ska.
Old Ska, who we’ve never met before, nor did I really remember his posts, says, “yeah, I’ll squeeze you in right here.” We fit in, we have fun. Ska and I put together a chant sheet at half time so we have a plan of chants throughout the second half so there isn’t a pause. I’m close enough to Loyal to work with him throughout the match. It was fantastic. I had to leave because my wife’s post partum really started to kick in here.
We learn that some of the Loyalists said, after we left, that “now we can show them (referring to us) how it’s really done. That’s just sad.
<still planning on the cavaliers next year, nothing has changed>

[fuegote]

Then comes the dreaded post to end all posts from Old Ska.

“Neil can you add more rep, (with instructions).” This is while Loyal is out of town. Now a lot of posts were made in reference to Old Ska getting personal, but in his defense, he was the one receiving the personal attacks first, he just responded. I know, I know, two wrongs, do not make a right, but it’s a message board, that’s what you do.

<we send a PM to Old Ska asking if he wanted to help us next year for our group. Again, next year>.

Well, my brothers and I are sarcastic, and some of the following posts were taken as “pouting children”, in Aero’s words, which couldn’t be farther from the truth. In fact Aero, you were spearheading most of the attacks against Ska for whatever reason. Aero complains as do some others. We get a PM from Deuce inviting us not to post anymore.

We were told we were childish, scary, and immature.

I AM FURIOUS! I reread all 200 of my posts and not one was critical, some photoshops were childish and some were immature but not to the extent of receiving and invitation to not post anymore.

I post Deuce to please give me some evidence that my posts have had any of said traits.

He failed to provide any. Now Ska, I’m not going to speak for him, he asks Deuce for proof, doesn’t get any and does threat Deuce to which he gets banned. For what? There wasn’t an immediate threat? He lives in freaking Wisconson. He also didn’t get any evidence from what I’m aware.

<We start the ball rolling right there and the forum is up, the website is purchased, -please reverse those as a forum can’t go up without a website>

You have to understand, we were just threatened with expulsion for not doing anything. Why not come up with a nickname to vent our frustration. The communists, the socialists was a great fit because we were being censored on this forum.

Why the secret? We weren’t ready to start our own club and cyber sleuth Neil already found my first website. Now Neil got a bad rap in all of this. All he ever wanted was a forum for all groups. He has said this is not a loyalist site but a site for all rsl fans. The reason for the covertness is we wanted to get ready before we announced anything and Neil already found me once.
He gave us a forum out of the kindness of his heart, we didn’t ask for it, he didn’t solicit it. It just showed up one day.

[fuegote]

Now the last game, I felt we worked together well. Loyal and I were communicating the entire match to make sure the flow was coming. The jesters came up with a cheer. What a great match.

This is where I must point out one individual. Aero, I can see both sides to the argument between you and goheartha. I don’t know what personal agenda you have with Ska, but you really know how to belittle somebody and then say it’s okay with a smiley face. I guess you can say anything and if there’s a smiley it makes it okay.

Why all the questions, why did you HAVE to know? I have yet to understand what was going on last night. Did it keep you awake wondering. I’m sorry I’m not getting it. Why wouldn’t an answer like, “you’ll know what the RCB is in time” suffice for the questioning.

Why the start of a new group? There’s several reasons.

1. we didn’t feel like we belonged with the “core” group that started it. If you weren’t a member of the main group, you were second tier, and I am not alone in my thinking on this one. Which leeds me to point

2. Organization. I truly felt we could do SO MUCH MORE with a support club. Loyal1 is doing a good job, but there is SO much more potential. There weren’t any meetings other than matches at Iggy’s where no business gets done. There has to be a structure. If you want to keep members, these new members need something more to do than show up to a match and a forum website. I’ve been involved with many groups in leadership levels, you need to give people stuff to do so they feel they belong. Why do you think I kept asking people what we could do or cheers to create.

3. sitting with the group of guys we were sitting with, we noticed with all of us: We are young, 21-35, we all have children at home so the wife is at home as well. We use the matches to get a lot of aggression out and it really helps. We wanted to start a group focusing on that demographic.

I understand where some of you are coming from, I really do. Czar, I’m still wondering why you had to post any of this. Why wouldn’t a “wait until we’re ready” suffice?

This is in no way a slight to any of you at all. You asked, I answered. The core of the matter, we never felt like we belonged although we made efforts to do so, and it was made worse with threats of not being able to post, and then the eventual pushing us into a corner until we spoke.

I’ll still be in my seat for the remainder of the season, (I paid good money for those 😉) and because I need to yell so I’m mellow everywhere else. Glenn, I still plan on looking at you to start the chant and I’ll get that section to start it up with us, but remember, I’m looking at you for a reason, start the chant.

[fuegote]

A huge olive branch was Glenn getting with me to help with the Loyalists section last week. And I must give him major accolades for that.

I do feel bad because last night was rather juvenile. I wish a simple, we’ll tell you later would have given you enough info to wait. You don’t need to know the answer to everything.

I hope you understand the communist comment now. That night really upset those of us who were trying to add to the “cause.” We’ve got season tickets, and we still Love RSL (although I love DJ for different reasons than many of you women do 😉)

I hope this is enough to put this matter to rest. (does this answer your questions Aero? :P)

I’m not spell checking this so there’s your warning. Look for a photo shop soon.

[fuegote]

I'm pretty retarded, it should read Questions and Answers part a...
"strike that, reverse it" ~willy wonka

[Aerick]

3. sitting with the group of guys we were sitting with, we noticed with all of us: We are young, 21-35, we all have children at home so the wife is at home as well. We use the matches to get a lot of aggression out and it really helps. We wanted to start a group focusing on that demographic.

Just one question for the mighty RSL fan, Fuegote (I mean that sincerely):

What do you plan to do when you don't fit your demographic anymore? 🙂

You could always come back to the Loyalists! :D

[Czar Jake]

I appreciate the explanation, and I want to apologize for causing trouble. I also want to apologize if I ever made the RCB members feel second-tier or not a part of the group. I think you guys are great, I really do.

Perhaps a separation would work. What if the two groups were in opposite corners or something. We could do mutual chants (you know, one group yells REAL and the other responds SALT LAKE or something) and at the same time do separate chants and songs. Any thoughts on that?

[Old Ska]

Since my name keeps getting dragged into this, I suppose I should weigh in as well. I have been involved in supporters groups for many years, and spend a ridiculous amount of time around pro soccer for my work. The original Rogue Cavaliers Guys knew that, and knew that I was someone who shared some of their concerns about the Loyalists and approached me to join their group.

I don't make it to every RSL match, but I bought season tickets for 4 of my employees and they report on matches to me, including how the fans are.

My issue with the Loyalists is pretty simple: they just don't fulfill what I would like to see in a supporters club. I realised this very clearly on the night of the pep rally and became convinced of it at the home opener, the WCQ the discussions and attitudes of hard-core Loyalists here, and other events. I could address this in great detail, but I think it would look like I was just complaining about the Loyalists to the Loyalists, which would be a dumb thing to do. I genuinely like a great number of the Loyalists, and do not want them to feel like they are under attack.

I am not going to be able to change the Loyalists. And they seem to be perfectly happy with what they have, I wouldn't want to spoil it for them.

So another group seems the perfect place for me. It so happens that there is another group with 20+ members and growing that agree with me on the purpose of a suporters club, of course that will be where I end up. We are all still figuring out what the club will look like, and that was why I dodged questions last night...I didn't want to misrepresent things that were still under discussion. The outright antagonism towards the idea of a different supporters club bewilders me. I think the Loyalists can continue to do their thing, and the Rogue Cavaliers Brigade can continue to do their thing...we have different sponsors, different away-match viewing locations, different philosophies and different goals. Trying to fit us all under one tent would be a big mistake in my opinion if it were not impossible (which I believe it to be).

I actually have acquantances to whom I have suggested that a Loyalists membership would be a good thing in the last week. There are others who don't feel comfortable with the Loyalists who gravitate to the Rogue Cavaliers Brigade, and people to whom I suggest that the Loyalists might not be what they are expecting in a Supporters club.

Could a reconciliation be possible? someone asked.... That implies that there is some sort of huge rift between us. As I see it, we ARE both supporters/fan clubs for RSL. I can honestly say the RCB would not do anything to harm the Loyalists (but I certainly don't feel like we can honestly say the Loyalists would never try to harm RCB, why post our info here before we were ready to make it public?) But for us to be "united" as one group the Loyalists would have to make too many changes to things that are too important to them. It is far better that a different group is available for people who don't feel like they are being served by the Loyalists.

Don't people who are RSL fans ever wish they had something like Section 8 and the Riot Squad?

[Deuce]

That is very helpful Fuegote thanks.

I will say in my defence, only because I feel you percieved my intentions incorrectly.

I always gave you guys love and props at the matches and photographed you in action many times...
I love the way you guys carry on at the matches.

I told you that I was acting on complaints, not just from one person. I told you I was not forwarding the PM's and I believe it is obvious why I did not. I did however explain to you the complanints summarizing the statements, they contained, I also explained why I was acting on the complaints.

You and your brothers responded admirably to my request.
It seems from your posts that there were alot of other things happening and if you recall I did not ban you or any of your brothers.

However I took issue with Old Ska and his replies to my request. As you can see from the ones that actually got posted in the other thread that he was very antagonistic and felt he was being singled out. which was not what was happening. I responded in a very controlled and respectful manner toward him.

I asked for reassurance from him and he gave it but then took it back in the following paragraphs of his reply. setting stipulations for his compliance and threatening the forum, not me, the forum with further disruption. that is why I banned him.

I know he is in Wisconsin and I was not concerned for my physical safety in the least. I acted because I was concerned with the integrity of the forum.
Old Ska was threatening to disrupt the forum... So I took the necessary steps to prevent that.

Then he came on and threatened the forum again under a new alias. so i banned him again. and then he came back under a new alias and I was about to ban him again, when Neil made his post and everything seemed to cool down.

On one of your threads you posted the definition of a troll. I think you should read that definition again and then come back and read this again. The similarities to Old Ska are uncanny.
You may have a loyalty to Ska that may prevent you from seeing this but I just wanted to point it out for the sake of clarity.

I still offer my apologies if you felt slighted it was never my intention to exclude you or make you feel unwelcome... I acted upon the informaion I was given at the time, and I would do it again without hesitation in order protect the integrity of this forum... that is the responsibility I have been given and i accept it.